Photo: Rowan Liebrum

Pinning down the aesthetic of the New York City skate scene is an impossible task, and like the driving pattern of a Dodge Challenger Hellcat on a busy freeway, it loves to haphazardly switch lanes. However, there are certain crumb trails you can follow, one of them being the Late Nite Stars.

Over a sixer of Modelo’s Zak and I talked about his perceived intimidating character, the effect NYC has had on his artistic and skating processes, as well as randomness like mosh pit etiquette. There’s not much out there on Zak, so enjoy this look behind the guise.

What would you be doing right now if you were still in Texas?
Texas kind of forced me to leave. I didn’t have a job for a while, I was doing Uber Eats, and I had no money whatsoever. I also used to work for this grocery store as the store artist. It was a bougie grocery store and they had chalkboards and stuff. It was dope, but long story short they fired me because they thought I was going to bring a gun and shoot up the place. I can’t even comprehend it. It was a life changing event. I had to write an apology letter and everything.

Did they offer an explanation for why they thought you were a potential threat?
Barely. I had stuff on the walls everywhere in the art room, and there were a couple of photos that they brought up like, “What’s up with this?” It was literally reference photos with a neon sign that had a gun that said bang. It was very comic, and it was for something I was working on. The whole thing felt made up. That basically made me leave San Antonio.

“Recontextualize me. I’m not scary. I like art that comes from dark places but I think it’s about the transformation of all that negativity.”

Why do you think you give off an intimidating vibe?
I’m so bummed about that. Every video we make there’s comments like, “School shooter vibes.” I can’t explain it. Maybe it’s the music that I like or the clothes I wear. I wish people wouldn’t say that. One of my favorite quotes I saw somewhere was, “Psycho killer, I wish you wouldn’t say that,” and I’m like yes, I wish you wouldn’t say that. I love beauty. Recontextualize me. I’m not scary. I like art that comes from dark places but I think it’s about the transformation of all that negativity.

Photo: Patrick Woodling

Speaking of music, where the hell did that Hypocrisy song come from for your part in The Circle? Swedish death metal to give it context.
Thank you for saying that. So many people say, “Oh, it’s dope you skated to Metallica.” I never had a big brother or a dad showing me things, so the algorithm and YouTube have put me onto everything. The Hypocrisy song came along after years of listening to black metal and other vaguely metal music. At one point the algorithm suggested a backing track with no vocals of a Hypocrisy song, I think it was called “The Final Chapter.” The video was so striking. It was like metal but color. Super saturated. It’s so melodic, and everything about it felt so new. All their videos were so interesting to me, and I love the imagery of the metalhead with super long hair, cargo shorts and combat boots.

Do you have an opinion on mosh pit etiquette?
The pit is crazy. A lot of people show up to a show and they don’t have skating as an outlet. The mosh pit is their skating. I recognize that, and I recognize that that is their physical outlet. They are at work all week waiting to go hard, and so I don’t even go in the pit like that. Inevitably I always get pulled in, maybe because I’m taller, but something about me people are like “This dudes getting in the pit.” I just wear my steel toes and I’ll rage, but I’m not well versed in etiquette.

With so many new crews and videos coming out, how do you make Late Nite Stars (LNS) videos stand out from the rest?
Frankly, and with respect to Chase, we are all very involved, which is something that ultimately reflects the LNS vibe. Chase is certainly at the helm, but Trung [Nguyen] made videos forever and so has Nico [Marti]. Everyone has been on both sides of the process of making a video, and naturally we’re all very obsessed.

It’s crazy to think of the days where the filmer would just lock himself in a room and make the whole thing, you know? It’s crazy that that was the norm. There’s a new emphasis on personality, and people want to know who the person is and the context of that person. It’s kind of funny, like we’re swinging really far into this abstract realm of not caring how good skaters are.

What do you think of these ironic, “bad on purpose” skate videos?
The internet brings so much irony, and I kind of hate it. My role in the context of our crew is like no irony, period. I am so sincere. The things I do aren’t a joke, and that’s not to say I don’t laugh or have fun. I don’t want to meme things, and the word irony is so far removed from what we’re trying to do. There’s such a distinct timestamp when you do that as well. I don’t think it ages well when you’re super ironic.

So when I look at you making an impossibly tiny LNS logo t-shirt, that’s not irony?
I think that was a revenge act. I’m speaking for myself now, but ultimately the last thing anyone needs is another t-shirt brand. We all love making graphics, and making shirts is objectively fun, but we’re self aware that we’re adding to a huge pile of garbage. I don’t even like doing it, but that was kind of our revenge. Like, “Ok, we’re going to make the classic logo shirt, and the logo is going to be illegibly small.” That was our prank on making what people wanted us to make and what we perceived people would want. We kinda played ourselves though, because no one bought them.

“The things I do aren’t a joke. The word irony is so far removed from what we’re trying to do.”

Do you think, creatively, you are more productive in a space like Texas or New York?
Lately I’ve been fantasizing about the vacuum of Texas, because it can be distracting in New York. I pay so much attention to what other people are doing, like you just can’t ignore it. Honestly, it’s crazy to step out and see other people that look like you, and coming from a small town I wanted that. I always felt so different from the people I was around in Texas. In New York I do feel like part of the group, and the biggest perspective shift was nobody was looking at me.

In Texas, I felt like people were looking at me and judging me constantly. To come here, no one cares. Everyone has so much going on, so the last thing they care about is what I’m doing. I love that. It felt like the biggest pressure release. I could fully exist and do my thing. Also, I had this idea that people were going to be rude, which is the stereotype, but people are really supportive here. If someone needs help, someone is going to be there.

Photo: Rowan Liebrum

Is the grass always greener?
Nah, I’m trying to be thankful. I’m happy to be here and around people that are interesting and inspirational. I appreciate the community, but it is funny how sometimes I’m like “I had that idea too.” It [NY] makes you move quickly but also always makes you reassess what you actually want to do. It’s funny how that works.

What do you think NY did to your style of skateboarding?
When I was in Texas I was skating with a bunch of bowl homies. I was definitely trying to be hesh. Everyone I was around was hesh, so it was kind of just a given. I still love it, and it’s funny to look at the progression. I think the style of skating that I’m super into now didn’t really exist at that time. People can skate small now. Polar was just coming out when I was coming up, and I was so inspired because it was very artistic and they were doing things that were not really difficult or dangerous. That was a huge turning point. The word tasteful comes to mind. Introducing that word to skateboarding was so major, and I won’t try and pinpoint when that happened, but that was huge for me. It elevated skateboarding, and I think skating is going through a renaissance of being less difficulty based and less macho.

I agree, there’s definitely a divide between macho skateboarding and more artistic expression, tasteful skating.
There are still people, “athletes,” pushing it. There’s a lot of parallels with art, where it’s not about realism or technique or being the most skilled, there’s a new emphasis on feeling, and that’s what I think is important now. In skateboarding, everyone is good, so the idea of doing it for the sake of doing it is more prevalent. We got to a point where so much gnarly stuff was happening, and the boundaries are constantly being pushed, but ultimately is that what you want to see? Does that get you excited? Truly it’s about doing it and inspiring other people to do it. That’s why people care about these small crews with no ulterior motive. Going back there’s always been a counter to the athletic. Like Neil Blender. That’s always been a fundamental part of skating, and that’s why it’s so much more nuanced than a sport.

Speaking of art, what is your favorite thing to draw?
I haven’t drawn in so long, I’m actually so bad at that, but for a long time I was really into drawing hands. They are very expressive and super challenging. It took me a long time to learn how to do it right. Plants are also really fun because you don’t have to worry about the shape that much and you can figure it out as you draw.

“I love detail. Not arbitrary detail, but having a lot. Why not say a lot?”

How would you describe the aesthetic of the art you make?
Defining your own aesthetic is so tricky. Overload is a good word, like maximalism. I remember I used to be disappointed in myself for not being a minimalist because I think for a long time there was a huge emphasis on that. Everyone thinks that minimalism is the smartest thing you can do, but I love detail. Not arbitrary detail, but having a lot. Having a bunch of things, like why not? Why not say a lot?

There’s a lot of religious undertones in your art. What do you think happens after we die?
Lemme get a beer for that one. It’s a good question. I was raised so religiously, and it’s still very relevant in my life. I still don’t feel super comfortable talking down on religion, but I do have a very different relationship to it now. I see spirituality as different from religion, and I’m super spiritual, but I don’t know if I can identify it yet. The thing about death, and the only thing that brings me peace is that when I die, I’m not going to exist. That’s the only thing I can comprehend. Ultimately it’s something I don’t think I have to worry about, because if I do fully cease to be then I won’t be there. It won’t be like anything.

Photo: Rowan Liebrum

Why do you like to play with religious imagery so much?
It’s what I’ve always known. There’s also a beauty in my mind to admitting there’s something larger than yourself. I think that’s important, this idea that humanity is not the end all be all, like there’s a higher power or whatever. Even in day to day life, sometimes you feel like there’s something extra.

I’ve been coming to terms with how unimportant I am. The universe is not watching me and my actions are not so dire. It’s almost like a relief, and I’m just here and happy to be. It’s a huge and ongoing internal debate constantly, being raised in the south. I went to private school, I was very on that tip. As much as I’ve always had these feelings of doubt, there’s also this inevitable internal relationship to the unknown.

“I’ve been coming to terms with how unimportant I am. The universe is not watching me and my actions are not so dire.”

Gifted Hater was one of the first to talk about LNS and it kind of popped y’all off. What’s it like to be on the SciFi team with him now?
I randomly knew Joa [Fields] already. I met him when I went to LA last year, which was super random. He was already the Hater at that time, so we knew who he was, and honestly I think his video about Trung put us all on. That brought so much attention. That timing was so perfect, and I think that brought us to where we are. Late Nite Stars as a whole is way more relevant because of Gifted Hater. We owe him, which is crazy.

The first day I pulled up to the trip late, everyone was already in the BNB, and I pulled up and I went straight to sleep. The first day, I wake up and he already has the camcorder out, already like, “Alright, soooo” like just vlogging. I was nervous, like I knew that was coming, but it’s funny trying to riff with Joa off rip. Waking up and trying to be kind of funny is new to me. I’m not really a morning person. In general, as much as he was creating content he was so respectful and chill, like nothing about it was annoying. He knows how to do it, but he can also just be a person. That’s the thing that freaked me out, like, “Ah man, a YouTuber.” But he’s chill, I don’t know how he does it, but he balances it well.

How much credit do you think the LNS crew can take when it comes to making Asics cool?
I don’t even know how cool it is. I still read comments and some people are not down. I have been seeing the shoes more and more and I think it’s starting to gain traction. It takes time. Any brand entering [skateboarding] takes time.

Truthfully, I was just bored with what was happening at the time. I didn’t know what shoe to wear. Every shoe felt like you were trying to do something. There was no neutral. I got to the point where I was wearing Globe’s. I bought this crazy pair and I got them two or three times because I wanted nothing to do with anything. Everything ends up feeling like you’re making a statement. I wanted to escape that, but with skate shoes it’s tough because they have to be functional. You can’t really wear non-skate shoes. I was wearing Jordan 1s for a little bit, but ultimately they are hard to get. The Asics thing, the benefit was that it wasn’t cool. We all liked it because it had no context. It was brand new and we were all excited because we had the chance to make it whatever we wanted. We could wear it and not try to be anyone else. Personally, every time a video comes out someone is talking about who I’m ripping off, like Ben Kadow or Ville Wester. It is what it is, and I can’t be too worried about it, but I loved the objective neutrality of Asics.

I think a lot of people are experiencing the same thing I was, and obviously I’m a result of skateboarding culture just like anybody else. I’m reacting to it in the same way that a lot of other people are. I’m sure so many people have this identity of trying to find something new. I’m not hesh, I’m not a Love Park guy, there’s not an identity that I necessarily affiliate with.

Photo: Rowan Liebrum

Are some of the aesthetic choices you make purely to go against the grain?
That’s an internal conflict. Living with my own contrarianism. I don’t want to be this brutal punk that hates everything that people like, and I’m trying really hard to undo that. That’s the thing with the irony path. I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to poke fun at skateboarding because I love it. There’s no joke there. I’m from a time and a place where all I ever had was this, so I’m not here to make fun of it. I don’t hate it, I love it.

“I don’t want to be this brutal punk that hates everything that people like.”

I think we’ve been lumped into this anti-style vibe, but I don’t mind it. Also, I think it’s good to revolt against what’s current, and keeping things moving and doing what is off limits results in progress. It’s fun to prod it a little, but in order to do that you have to be able to satisfy the core, so if I was fully trolling and trying to torture the old heads, it wouldn’t have the same effect. I wouldn’t like it myself.

Is it annoying that the things you do to be contrarian end up becoming popular?
I’ve always had these delusions of grandeur, like “Ahhh, they’re copying me,” but I feel like finally, and this is very real, I don’t believe that anymore. I’ve recently stopped believing that I’m important as far as trendsetting. I don’t think people are copying me anymore and I used to feel that way very strongly.

I find that I am incidentally archetypal. We are all reacting to the same media, and I always remind myself of this. We are consuming content that is seen by a lot of people, so the ideas that we have are not always our own. We are reacting to stimulus. All that stuff, like the ripped jeans and this and that, I’m looking at the fashion world and downtown kids. I’m also always struggling with who I am being from the Rural South. I’m not going to wear something that doesn’t represent myself. For me, dirty ripped jeans and camo is real for me, so I’d rather claim it versus someone that I’d be mad about. I’m claiming it for Texas.

Who is someone or something you look towards outside of skateboarding for influence?
I try really hard to blend everything, so looking at one person too hard is something I try to avoid. Alan Vega from Suicide, he’s amazing. He makes visual art and in general the way he carries himself is so unapologetic and was, at the time, kind of out of nowhere. He was also not well received. He had this brutal confidence about being a freak, and it’s kind of sick. I always remember how much I appreciate him, because in his life he probably didn’t feel much appreciation. It’s cool to know that something you do can affect a really strange and unrelated person.

He was into pioneering and progressing. He didn’t hate what was going on though, he just wanted more, which I think is how I feel about skating. I don’t hate anything about skating, but I want it to go further. Creatively, he inspires me. Nothing mattered. The shows he played initially, people hated. It was terribly received. It’s not like I’m him, but I like that energy. The pure creative spirit.

“If you don’t like your own sauce, why are you even cooking?”

What’s the worst piece of advice you’ve ever gotten?
Woah, damn. I think the concept of having to hate yourself, like the idea of if you mess with your own stuff and think what you’re doing is dope then you’re whack. Like… what? You have to love what you’re doing to a degree. Obviously you don’t want to be full of yourself, but I think this incessant “Be more humble,” ends up feeling unsatisfying. If you don’t like your own sauce, why are you even cooking?

Interview by: Ben Komins
Photos Courtesy of: Rowan Liebrum and Patrick Woodling
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